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	<title>Comments on: Car runs on compressed air</title>
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	<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/</link>
	<description>...views from the Black Tower at the edge of the cloud</description>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1634</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1634</guid>
		<description>By poking around archived versions of the previous MDI website, I found some performance info.

The ACTUAL TESTED RANGE of their prototype vehicle was only 7.22km!   Less than 5 mile operating range!   Then they said that the production car would only weight half that of the prototype, so range will be doubled to 14km/9 miles; and we&#039;ll change from steel tanks to carbon fiber tanks and we&#039;ll add stages to the air engine so the range will quadrupled beyond that to 55km/34 miles; and improve the distribution seal of the engine to multiply range another factors of 2.5 to 138km/86 miles; and we&#039;ll make the engine run closer to isothermic for another factor of 1.4 for a predicted range of 191km/120miles; and then we&#039;ll make the tanks bigger and higher pressure to get a predicted range of 242km/150miles.

See how easy it is to take the actual performance of less than 5 mile range and come up with a specification of 150 mile range!   Now we know how they do it on paper.  The problem is, apparently they have NEVER done it in real life.

Taking a 4.5mile actual test and turning that into a 120 or 150 operating range is so outrageous that you may think I&#039;m making this up.  But you can see for yourself by going to the archived MDI website pages on the wayback machine at archive.org:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070915070846/www.theaircar.com/tests.html

It&#039;s nice to have this sort of stuff recorded on the internet in a way that it won&#039;t disappear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By poking around archived versions of the previous MDI website, I found some performance info.</p>
<p>The ACTUAL TESTED RANGE of their prototype vehicle was only 7.22km!   Less than 5 mile operating range!   Then they said that the production car would only weight half that of the prototype, so range will be doubled to 14km/9 miles; and we&#8217;ll change from steel tanks to carbon fiber tanks and we&#8217;ll add stages to the air engine so the range will quadrupled beyond that to 55km/34 miles; and improve the distribution seal of the engine to multiply range another factors of 2.5 to 138km/86 miles; and we&#8217;ll make the engine run closer to isothermic for another factor of 1.4 for a predicted range of 191km/120miles; and then we&#8217;ll make the tanks bigger and higher pressure to get a predicted range of 242km/150miles.</p>
<p>See how easy it is to take the actual performance of less than 5 mile range and come up with a specification of 150 mile range!   Now we know how they do it on paper.  The problem is, apparently they have NEVER done it in real life.</p>
<p>Taking a 4.5mile actual test and turning that into a 120 or 150 operating range is so outrageous that you may think I&#8217;m making this up.  But you can see for yourself by going to the archived MDI website pages on the wayback machine at archive.org:<br />
<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20070915070846/www.theaircar.com/tests.html" rel="nofollow">http://web.archive.org/web/20070915070846/www.theaircar.com/tests.html</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s nice to have this sort of stuff recorded on the internet in a way that it won&#8217;t disappear.</p>
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		<title>By: Abimbola</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1609</link>
		<dc:creator>Abimbola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1609</guid>
		<description>Interesting concept. Look forward to seeing a final product. Will keep an eye on website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting concept. Look forward to seeing a final product. Will keep an eye on website.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1607</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1607</guid>
		<description>So what is the ACTUAL performance of the prototype in the video???

What is the ACTUAL top speed of the prototype ??????

What is the ACTUAL range of the prototype ??????

I&#039;ve seen lots and lots of claims, but very very little in the way of actual performance test results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what is the ACTUAL performance of the prototype in the video???</p>
<p>What is the ACTUAL top speed of the prototype ??????</p>
<p>What is the ACTUAL range of the prototype ??????</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen lots and lots of claims, but very very little in the way of actual performance test results.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1606</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1606</guid>
		<description>By the time all of the vehicle safety requirements are met, you will have a car  weighing well over twice the initial amount, and correspondingly reduced speed and range.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the time all of the vehicle safety requirements are met, you will have a car  weighing well over twice the initial amount, and correspondingly reduced speed and range.</p>
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		<title>By: amidude</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1605</link>
		<dc:creator>amidude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1605</guid>
		<description>Um...anyone heard of the P.H.E.V. car? South Korea already did this back in 2000. *yawn*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um&#8230;anyone heard of the P.H.E.V. car? South Korea already did this back in 2000. *yawn*</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1604</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1604</guid>
		<description>Air compression is only inefficient if you waste heat.  The typical compressor aims for isothermal compression, and the compressor is cooled by warming up the atmosphere.  The trick is adiabatic compression, where the compressor is insulated and heat is not wasted.  To keep temperatures reasonable, say 300 C, the compressor is cooled with water sprayed into the intake, and the compressed air/steam mixture is stored in insulated high-pressure tanks.  On expansion, the steam condenses and reheats the air, so the input is ambient temperature air and water, and exhaust is ambient temperature air and distilled water.  It is thermodynamically &quot;perfect&quot;. (US patent No. 5,832,728) This has been experimentally demonstrated; for the transmission of power, a compressor-expander was more efficient than an electric generator-motor.  

One can store about 1 kWhr in a cubic foot.  If you want an x-prize vehicle (four seats, 100 mph, 0-60 in twelve, 200 mile range), start with an extended cab pick-up truck and fill the bed with insulated tanks.  The drive line is &quot;stock&quot; with a manual transmission and, preferably, a modified diesel engine.  The expansion ratio can be adjusted by the timing of the electronically controlled common-rail injectors, injecting air rather than fuel.  Heat is plentiful, and cooling can be had either with the stock A/C unit or by overexpanding the exhaust. 

Air/steam (I call it wet compressed air) has several advantages over batteries, whether in a hybrid or in a &quot;pure&quot; zero-emissions car.  There are no scarce or toxic batteries which must be recycled, or expensive copper motors.  Air tanks are cheaper and scale well.  You can store megaWatt-hrs in an underground or underwater tank at a tiny fraction of the cost of batteries.  Recharging is easy.  You can have an electrically driven compressor in your garage, or stop at a &quot;gas&quot; station to recharge in minutes. (No, the tanks will not get &quot;red hot&quot;)  With the quick recharge, the range at highway speeds is &quot;unlimited&quot;, while with a battery vehicle, when you add in the recharging time, the average speed is comparable to a bicycle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Air compression is only inefficient if you waste heat.  The typical compressor aims for isothermal compression, and the compressor is cooled by warming up the atmosphere.  The trick is adiabatic compression, where the compressor is insulated and heat is not wasted.  To keep temperatures reasonable, say 300 C, the compressor is cooled with water sprayed into the intake, and the compressed air/steam mixture is stored in insulated high-pressure tanks.  On expansion, the steam condenses and reheats the air, so the input is ambient temperature air and water, and exhaust is ambient temperature air and distilled water.  It is thermodynamically &#8220;perfect&#8221;. (US patent No. 5,832,728) This has been experimentally demonstrated; for the transmission of power, a compressor-expander was more efficient than an electric generator-motor.  </p>
<p>One can store about 1 kWhr in a cubic foot.  If you want an x-prize vehicle (four seats, 100 mph, 0-60 in twelve, 200 mile range), start with an extended cab pick-up truck and fill the bed with insulated tanks.  The drive line is &#8220;stock&#8221; with a manual transmission and, preferably, a modified diesel engine.  The expansion ratio can be adjusted by the timing of the electronically controlled common-rail injectors, injecting air rather than fuel.  Heat is plentiful, and cooling can be had either with the stock A/C unit or by overexpanding the exhaust. </p>
<p>Air/steam (I call it wet compressed air) has several advantages over batteries, whether in a hybrid or in a &#8220;pure&#8221; zero-emissions car.  There are no scarce or toxic batteries which must be recycled, or expensive copper motors.  Air tanks are cheaper and scale well.  You can store megaWatt-hrs in an underground or underwater tank at a tiny fraction of the cost of batteries.  Recharging is easy.  You can have an electrically driven compressor in your garage, or stop at a &#8220;gas&#8221; station to recharge in minutes. (No, the tanks will not get &#8220;red hot&#8221;)  With the quick recharge, the range at highway speeds is &#8220;unlimited&#8221;, while with a battery vehicle, when you add in the recharging time, the average speed is comparable to a bicycle.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1603</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1603</guid>
		<description>Doubt it might be useful for mainstream highway applications due to safety reasons. A serious accident with of these, which might potentially rupture the 4,500 psi tank, could be like a bomb going off. Hmmm, mobile bombs...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doubt it might be useful for mainstream highway applications due to safety reasons. A serious accident with of these, which might potentially rupture the 4,500 psi tank, could be like a bomb going off. Hmmm, mobile bombs&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1601</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1601</guid>
		<description>No, you cannot refuel at a tire pump. Tire pumps only go up to around 60 psi. These vehicles store air at 300 bar (around 4500 psi).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, you cannot refuel at a tire pump. Tire pumps only go up to around 60 psi. These vehicles store air at 300 bar (around 4500 psi).</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1600</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1600</guid>
		<description>Cab you refuel at the tire pump?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cab you refuel at the tire pump?</p>
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		<title>By: IonOtter</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1598</link>
		<dc:creator>IonOtter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1598</guid>
		<description>Well, this looks doable for a vehicle to be used as an inner-city transportation system?  

Ban gasoline/diesel vehicles or place a massive tax on them being used inside the city limits, then provide thousands of these things in multi-story parking garages.  Drive to the outskirts of the city, park your regular vehicle, slot your &quot;share card&quot; and pick up one of these for the last 10 miles to work.

Suddenly, your daily commute becomes a soft, quiet time with breathable air all around.

As for air conditioning, that would come from the tank itself.  As the car is running, the tank will become freezing cold as the compressed air is used up.  Just run the air from inside the unit around it to make it cool.

My only concern is that the site says a fill-up only takes &quot;a few minutes&quot;.  Ahhh, no.  Doing a fill-up CORRECTLY will take 10-20 minutes.  Fill it up too fast, and it will get red hot, unless you&#039;re already using liquid air.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this looks doable for a vehicle to be used as an inner-city transportation system?  </p>
<p>Ban gasoline/diesel vehicles or place a massive tax on them being used inside the city limits, then provide thousands of these things in multi-story parking garages.  Drive to the outskirts of the city, park your regular vehicle, slot your &#8220;share card&#8221; and pick up one of these for the last 10 miles to work.</p>
<p>Suddenly, your daily commute becomes a soft, quiet time with breathable air all around.</p>
<p>As for air conditioning, that would come from the tank itself.  As the car is running, the tank will become freezing cold as the compressed air is used up.  Just run the air from inside the unit around it to make it cool.</p>
<p>My only concern is that the site says a fill-up only takes &#8220;a few minutes&#8221;.  Ahhh, no.  Doing a fill-up CORRECTLY will take 10-20 minutes.  Fill it up too fast, and it will get red hot, unless you&#8217;re already using liquid air.</p>
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		<title>By: Physics Major</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1597</link>
		<dc:creator>Physics Major</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1597</guid>
		<description>Sorry - can&#039;t work, do the math.  Another &quot;Buy stock now&quot; company that will be gone in 2 years.  Execs will be rich, everyone else broke.  
Physics Major</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry &#8211; can&#8217;t work, do the math.  Another &#8220;Buy stock now&#8221; company that will be gone in 2 years.  Execs will be rich, everyone else broke.<br />
Physics Major</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1596</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1596</guid>
		<description>I think this is a great idea.  Unfortunately the U.S. is so horsepower hungry that they won&#039;t appreciate this transporter, but more intelligent, open-minded cultures will really appreciate it.  I would love to have one myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is a great idea.  Unfortunately the U.S. is so horsepower hungry that they won&#8217;t appreciate this transporter, but more intelligent, open-minded cultures will really appreciate it.  I would love to have one myself.</p>
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		<title>By: deviceguru</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1595</link>
		<dc:creator>deviceguru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 20:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1595</guid>
		<description>@jon

Actually, the company has several hybrid power source designs. Take a look on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mdi.lu/&quot; target=&quot;new&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;MDI&#039;s website&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jon</p>
<p>Actually, the company has several hybrid power source designs. Take a look on <a href="http://www.mdi.lu/" target="new" rel="nofollow">MDI&#8217;s website</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: jon</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1594</link>
		<dc:creator>jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 19:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1594</guid>
		<description>The concept is fine, but this prototype is completely unacceptable for any market other than disneyland. Its appearance is absurd -- looks more like a SeaMonkey bowl than an automobile and if it ran on onlooker&#039;s laughter rather than compressed air, it would be a perpetual motion machine!

I must assume there is no air conditioning (since even an efficient A/C compressor requires 2hp, alone). Likely there is not provision for heat either (no waste heat due to no internal combustion engine) which makes it unworkable for all but the most temperate climates.

I think the compressed air engine&#039;s place is as part of a hybrid air/electric or air/combustion hybrid. Alone, air power is not sufficient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The concept is fine, but this prototype is completely unacceptable for any market other than disneyland. Its appearance is absurd &#8212; looks more like a SeaMonkey bowl than an automobile and if it ran on onlooker&#8217;s laughter rather than compressed air, it would be a perpetual motion machine!</p>
<p>I must assume there is no air conditioning (since even an efficient A/C compressor requires 2hp, alone). Likely there is not provision for heat either (no waste heat due to no internal combustion engine) which makes it unworkable for all but the most temperate climates.</p>
<p>I think the compressed air engine&#8217;s place is as part of a hybrid air/electric or air/combustion hybrid. Alone, air power is not sufficient.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.deviceguru.com/car-runs-on-compressed-air/#comment-1593</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deviceguru.com/?p=2173#comment-1593</guid>
		<description>compressing air is inefficient.  What is the expected KWH/mile?   But the 135 miles range is impressive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>compressing air is inefficient.  What is the expected KWH/mile?   But the 135 miles range is impressive.</p>
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